Anti war Christian vs pro war Christians

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Anti war Christian vs pro war Christians

Post  American Zombie on Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:11 pm

Hope one of you Biblical experts give your opinion on this. I don't know much about the bible but I thought this was interesting.



----------------------------------------------------------
And Your Point Is?
by Laurence M. Vance



From a biblical perspective, the worst thing about Christian apologists for war, the military, and the warfare state is not their willful ignorance of U.S. foreign policy, their blind nationalism, their childish devotion to the military, their cheerleading for the Republican Party, their acceptance of the national-security state, or their support for perpetual war, but their misuse of Scripture.

What follows are examples of some of the Old Testament Scripture verses often quoted or referred to before or after some Christian warmonger seeks to defend U.S. wars, the U.S. empire, or the U.S. military as a divine institution.

Abraham, "the friend of God" (James 2:23)," "armed his trained servants" to rescue his nephew Lot (Genesis 14:14).

The LORD brought the Jews "out of the land of Egypt by their armies" (Exodus 12:2).

"The LORD is a man of war" (Exodus 15:3).

The LORD told the children of Israel that he would "destroy all the people to whom" they came, and make their enemies "turn their backs" unto them (Exodus 23:27).

The LORD commanded the children of Israel to "destroy" the altars of the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, "to break their images, and cut down their groves" (Exodus 34:11-13).

After "Israel vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou wilt indeed deliver this people into my hand, then I will utterly destroy their cities," "the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities" (Numbers 21:2-3).


Moses told the children of Israel to arm themselves "unto the war" and war against the Midianites. So Israel slew all the males and "took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods." Then they "burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire." And "took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts." But "Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle" because they "saved all the women alive," which had caused the children of Israel to "commit trespass against the LORD." So Moses commanded Israel to "kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him" and to "keep alive" for themselves "all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him" (Numbers 31:1-18).

When the children of Israel went out to battle, they were accompanied by priests (Deuteronomy 20:2).

Joshua and "about forty thousand prepared for war passed over before the LORD unto battle, to the plains of Jericho" (Joshua 4:13). The Jews blockaded the city and "utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword" (Joshua 6:21).

Joshua "utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai" and burnt the city, with Israel taking "the cattle and the spoil" for themselves "according to the word of the LORD which he commanded Joshua" (Joshua 8:26-28).

The LORD sent Gideon to save Israel from the Midianites by smiting them (Judges 6:13-16).

The LORD commanded Saul to "smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass" (1 Samuel 15:3).


King David, a man after Godís own heart (1 Samuel 13:14), was "a man of war" (1 Samuel 16:18) who had slain "his ten thousands" (1 Samuel 18:7), and said: "Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hand to war and my fingers to fight" (Psalm 144:1).

The LORD commanded David to go and fight against the Philistines and he would deliver them into his hand. David then smote the Philistines with "a great slaughter," thereby saving the inhabitants of Keilah (1 Samuel 23:4-5).

David smote the Amalekites "from the twilight even unto the evening of the next day: and there escaped not a man of them, save four hundred young men, which rode upon camels, and fled" (1 Samuel 30:17).

David warred against the Philistines, Moab, Zobah, Syria, and Edom (2 Samuel 8:1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 13, 14), and "the LORD preserved David whithersoever he went" (2 Samuel 8:14).

Israelites from the tribes of Reuben, Gad, and Manasseh, "men able to bear buckler and sword, and to shoot with bow, and skilful in war," made war with the Hagarites. Many of the enemy were slain "because the war was of God" (1 Chronicles 5:18-23).

When the Jews rebuilt the wall of Jerusalem, half of the people worked and "the other half of them held both the spears, the shields, and the bows, and the habergeons" (Nehemiah 4:16-18, 21).

My reply to all of the above is simply this: And your point is?

Really, that is all I have to say.


What these imperial Christians are tying to say is that because the Jews in the Old Testament did X, Christians under the New Testament should support the U.S. government and its military doing Y.


But as I have pointed out numerous times, both in lectures and in articles, it is wrong to invoke the Jewish wars of the Old Testament against the heathen as a justification for the actions of the U.S. government and its military. Although God sponsored these wars, and used the Jewish nation to conduct them, it does not follow that God sponsors American wars or that America is Godís chosen nation. The U.S. president is not Moses, Joshua, King David, or God Almighty, America is neither the nation of Israel nor Godís chosen nation, the U.S. military is not the Lordís army, and the Lord never sanctioned any Christian to go on a crusade, commanded him to war on his behalf, or encouraged any Christian to kill, make apologies for the killing of, or excuse the killing of any adherent to a false religion.

And as Philip Kapusta writes in Blood Guilt: Christian Responses to Americaís War on Terror (New Covenant Press, 2011):

In fighting against these nations, the armies of Israel acted as Godís agents of wrath and were used to execute His judgments. The wars of Israel were always to be at Godís command, subject to His laws, and for the occupation and the defense of the Land of Promise. The children of Israel could only kill when killing in the name of God Ė that is, when killing in obedience to a direct mandate from God.

Unlike the children of Israel, who were brought out of Egypt and given a land of their own and provided with a set of laws to govern them within Godís divine kingdom, Christians have not been given a similar tract of land to defend or fight for. Neither have Christians been given a king upon earth who enforces Godís laws when violated.


Some armchair Christian warriors, evangelical warvangelicals, Catholic just war theorists, reich-wing Christian nationalists, Red-State Christian fascists, pro-life hypocrites, theocon Values Voters, Christian Coalition moralists, and Religious Right warmongers are a little more savvy.

To sound a little more scriptural, they will also quote or refer to some verses in the New Testament before or after they seek to defend U.S. wars, the U.S. empire, or the U.S. military as a divine institution.

Jesus told a centurion he had "great faith" and healed his servant (Matthew 8:5-13).

Jesus "went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves" (Matthew 21:12).

John the Baptist told soldiers: "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages," but did not tell them to leave the military (Luke 3:14).

Jesus delivered a parable about a king going to war (Luke 14:31).

Jesus told his disciples: "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one" (Luke 22:36).

Jesus "made a scourge of small cords" and drove the moneychangers out of the temple (John 2:14-15).

Cornelius the Roman centurion was a just man that feared God, gave much alms, and prayed always (Acts 10:1-2).


The Apostle Paul said: "The powers that be are ordained of God" (Romans 13:1).

The Christian is commanded to "endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ" (2 Timothy 2:3).

The "armies of heaven" will follow Christ when he returns (Revelation 19:14).

Jesus Christ is depicted as bearing a "sharp sword" and using it to "smite the nations" as he rules them with "a rod of iron" (Revelation 19:15).

Again, my reply is simply: And your point is?

American military officers are not surrogates for Jesus Christ. Whatever Jesus Christ did or will do has absolutely no relevance to what the U. S. military does in Afghanistan. And if a Christian warmonger wants to do what Jesus did, then why not start with doing "no sin" and not having "guile found in his mouth" (1 Peter 2:22)?

Although the New Testament does liken a Christian to a soldier (Philemon 2, Philippians 2:25), as soldiers Christians are admonished to "put on the whole armor of God" (Ephesians 6:11), not Marine body armor, have on "the breastplate of righteousness" (Ephesians 6:14), not a Navy uniform, shod their feet "with the preparation of the gospel of peace" (Ephesians 6:15), not Army boots, and wear "the helmet of salvation" (Ephesians 6:17), not an Air Force pilot helmet. The weapons of the Christian soldier are not carnal (2 Corinthians 10:4). His shield is "the shield of faith" (Ephesians 6:16), not an M1 Abrams tank, and his sword is "the word of God" (Ephesians 6:17), not an M-16. The only warfare the New Testament encourages the Christian to wage is against the world, the flesh, and the devil.


Regarding Roman soldiers and centurions, isnít it strange how that apologists for the U.S. military never refer to the ones scourged, stripped, crowned with thorns, mocked, smote, spit on, and crucified Jesus Christ?

And besides, there is a big problem with justifying the activities of the U.S. military because soldiers are not condemned in the New Testament; slave owners are not condemned either (Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 3:22, 4:1; 1 Timothy 6:1; 1 Peter 2:18).

On John the Baptist and soldiers, I have written a whole article here. Is not war the highest form of violence? On Romans 13, I have written articles here and here.

When all else fails, the Bible does say there is "a time of war" (Ecclesiastes 3:Cool. But of course, that doesnít justify the war in Iraq, even though Jerry Falwell implied it did.

To hear some Christians talk about war and the military just like Republican politicians, one gets the impression they think the GOP is Godís Own Party instead of a pack of rabid war-crazed defenders of militarism and empire.

Which is worse, "deceived" Muslims using the Koran to justify jihad, suicide bombers, and IED attacks or "enlightened" Christians using the Bible to justify war, torture, and drone strikes? The answer should be quite obvious.

October 25, 2012

Laurence M. Vance [send him mail] writes from central Florida. He is the author of Christianity and War and Other Essays Against the Warfare State, The Revolution that Wasn't, Rethinking the Good War, and The Quatercentenary of the King James Bible. His latest book is The War on Drugs Is a War on Freedom. Visit his website.

Copyright © 2012 by LewRockwell.com. Permission to reprint in whole or in part is gladly granted, provided full credit is given.
avatar
American Zombie
Boss

Number of posts : 5970
Registration date : 2008-01-19

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard62.html

Back to top Go down

Re: Anti war Christian vs pro war Christians

Post  MissL on Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:15 pm

I don't claim to be a Biblical expert, but I had some thoughts as I read this.

1. I would think that the reason why Christians use old and new testament scriptures in the discussion of war is to remind others that war is not foreign to God. True God is a person of love, grace and mercy, but He is no stranger to war. The scriptures serve as evidence that God not only allowed but told the children of Israel to goto battle.

2. Although God talks about the Jews being a special people, Christians believe that because Christ died on the cross, for those who accept Him as their Savior they come into the same covenant as the Jews as that we are all God's children and have the same privileges as they do. If Got can send a Jew into battle He can send a Christian.

3. I believe that our government doesn't always have the peoples best interest in mind when making policies or important decisions, however- I somewhat disagree with the author when he said "Neither have Christians been given a king upon earth who enforces Godís laws when violated." America doesn't have a king, but we do have punishments for people who steal, and kill which are both things God made laws about.

4. Agreed also that it is likely that our government has gone through some wars that God had not intended us to do, however, I certainly am not gonna pretend like I know God's inner conversations with everyone. God could have told Bush, or previous presidents to goto war, who am I to know or say I know anything about the personal religious relationship between God and the president.

5. I think Christians felt with at least 9/11 a certain amount of that attack was a persecution of faith being that our country has had a long history of being Christian. Muslim extremest who thought America and Christianity were evil gave Christians the idea to think that we are defending our country and our faith.

6. God is not someone who enjoys when people kill each other, but sometimes war is necessary. Perhaps some Christians are over eager about war, and some may use scriptures to promote their own agenda, but I think it is wrong to put all Christians in this box. People may belong to 1 religion but that doesn't mean they have only 1 viewpoint.

avatar
MissL
Soldier

Number of posts : 211
Registration date : 2009-03-09
Location : IE

Back to top Go down

Re: Anti war Christian vs pro war Christians

Post  American Zombie on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:09 am

Thanks for the input.

I personally think many Christians in the country get duped and mislead by scumbag politicians into supporting evil.

To me, the best line from the blog was this


What these imperial Christians are tying to say is that because the Jews in the Old Testament did X, Christians under the New Testament should support the U.S. government and its military doing Y.
avatar
American Zombie
Boss

Number of posts : 5970
Registration date : 2008-01-19

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard62.html

Back to top Go down

Re: Anti war Christian vs pro war Christians

Post  MissL on Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:51 pm

we need a "like" button, so that instead of replying we could just give a thumbs up to someones post lol
avatar
MissL
Soldier

Number of posts : 211
Registration date : 2009-03-09
Location : IE

Back to top Go down

Re: Anti war Christian vs pro war Christians

Post  Forum Gawd on Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:52 pm

MissL wrote:we need a "like" button, so that instead of replying we could just give a thumbs up to someones post lol

There was something similar to that but these fascist admins took it off because people were clicking dislike on people alot lol..

_________________
CauseItsreal wrote:dxt this reminds me. start adding horny chicanos to the myspace. my lady goes to bed to early, i need a man who can keep up with me
avatar
Forum Gawd
Boss

Number of posts : 4793
Registration date : 2009-09-16
Age : 23
Location : Athol Street Nd Hemlock.!!!

Back to top Go down

Re: Anti war Christian vs pro war Christians

Post  American Zombie on Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:52 am

Dt and Nyte took it off because I got a lot of likes and they didn't.
avatar
American Zombie
Boss

Number of posts : 5970
Registration date : 2008-01-19

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard62.html

Back to top Go down

Re: Anti war Christian vs pro war Christians

Post  TumbleWeed on Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:07 pm

Will be giving my thoughts on this when I get some free time.
avatar
TumbleWeed
Boss

Number of posts : 7348
Registration date : 2008-01-19

http://iestreetlife.aforumfree.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Anti war Christian vs pro war Christians

Post  American Zombie on Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:30 pm


Posted by Laurence Vance on November 19, 2012 08:57 AM
Blasphemous GOP button worn at the Texas Republican convention earlier this year.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
avatar
American Zombie
Boss

Number of posts : 5970
Registration date : 2008-01-19

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard62.html

Back to top Go down

Re: Anti war Christian vs pro war Christians

Post  Drunky McThuggerton on Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:37 pm

WholeGrains4Life wrote:Will be giving my thoughts on this when I get some free time.
lol off topic but, kyte should make this his signature..hahaha

_________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Drunky McThuggerton
Boss

Number of posts : 5175
Registration date : 2008-06-25
Age : 85
Location : Everywhere...

http://2012data.webs.com/theilluminati.htm

Back to top Go down

Re: Anti war Christian vs pro war Christians

Post  Forum Gawd on Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:39 pm

DontxTrip wrote:
WholeGrains4Life wrote:Will be giving my thoughts on this when I get some free time.
lol off topic but, kyte should make this his signature..hahaha

lol true that....

_________________
CauseItsreal wrote:dxt this reminds me. start adding horny chicanos to the myspace. my lady goes to bed to early, i need a man who can keep up with me
avatar
Forum Gawd
Boss

Number of posts : 4793
Registration date : 2009-09-16
Age : 23
Location : Athol Street Nd Hemlock.!!!

Back to top Go down

Re: Anti war Christian vs pro war Christians

Post  American Zombie on Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:06 am

Do Soldiers Imitate Christ?
by Laurence M. Vance




This past Veterans Day was especially troubling to those of us who donít go to church to see and hear the military idolatry that is unfortunately all too prevalent in many churches. The reason this year was so bad is that Veterans Day actually fell on a Sunday. It is bad enough to attend church on the Sunday before Veterans Day (or Independence Day), but it is even worse when a state holiday falls on a Sunday. Thank God Memorial Day is always observed on a Monday.

So, this past Veterans Day was the perfect day for military-loving churches to give their last full measure of devotion, so to speak, when it comes to the military: veterans dressed in their military uniforms, veterans asked to stand while they are applauded, active duty military personnel recognized, the church building and grounds decorated with flags, the pledge to the flag recited, patriotic songs sung, hymns of worship to the state sung, prayers for the troops, thanks to the troops for "keeping us safe" and "defending our freedoms," the songs of the different branches of the military played on the piano before the service or during the offering, a "Support Our Troops" message on the church sign, a video tribute to the military played during the Sunday morning church service, a special message by a military chaplain from the local base, and the glorification of the military in general.

I have observed on more than one occasion that American Christians donít seem to care how many wars their great troops are involved in, how senseless the wars, or how many lies the wars are based on. They donít seem to care how many countries their beloved troops are in, how many foreign bases they are on, or how many billions the United States spends to maintain its empire of troops and bases around the globe. They donít seem to care how many foreign civilians are killed by their glorious troops, how many are maimed and injured, or how many widows and orphans they create. It doesnít seem to matter what their great troops do, where their beloved troops do it, and to whom their glorious troops do it.


This is no more apparent than in the writings of the theologically schizophrenic Michael Milton, whom I discovered and wrote about a year ago.

Milton is the Chancellor, CEO, and The James M. Baird Jr. Chair of Pastoral Theology at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina. Milton is also a Navy veteran, an Army Reserve chaplain, an instructor at the U.S. Army Chaplain Center & School in Fort Jackson, S.C., and a member of the American Legion, the Reserve Officers Association, and the U.S Army Chaplain Corps Regimental Association. And as I also pointed out last year, he holds to every armchair warrior, red-state fascist, reich-wing nationalist, imperial Christian fallacy known to man.

"Veterans Day is a holy day, at least for me," says Milton in an article for byFaith, the online magazine of the Presbyterian Church in America, "And I think that Christ is glorified, at least in my heart, when I hear the Navy hymn sung by voices that have been there, in the air, in the land, and on the sea."

In his article Milton reminiscences about being a young man and seeing a neighbor named Carl leaving for Vietnam. "I felt proud to see him go. He had his uniform on, having just returned from boot camp for a final few days of family time before being flown to Vietnam, and I was impressed," says Milton, who "loved to see young men in our countryís uniforms" because it reminded him of his late father, a naval officer, who died when he was five. Milton never saw Carl alive again, but he did see the men in uniform emerge from the "white government car" a month later and tell Carlís young wife that he had been killed in Vietnam.

What made my blood boil was not that Carl died unnecessarily, duped, in vain, and for a lie, just like the thousands of U.S. soldiers who have done so in Iraq and Afghanistan, but Ė as senseless and as tragic as Carlís death was Ė because of what Milton said about soldiers in recounting his Veterans Day custom:

Each Sunday nearest Veterans Day, I would always take time in the announcements to read from Romans 13 about "showing honor unto whom honor was due." I would ask our organist or pianist to play the service songs of each of the Armed Forces branches and for veterans to stand as they were played. I would ask them to stand for those who also served but did not come home. I always reminded them to play for the Merchant Marines, too. At the conclusion, as all were standing, I asked that we go to the Lord to pray for these and give thanks for all who would imitate Christ Jesus and serve and sacrifice so that we could be free.


Taking these last statements in reverse order Ė

U.S. troops fighting in foreign wars are doing everything but defending our freedoms. The more they defend our freedoms Ė by bombing, invading, and occupying other countries Ė the more enemies of the United States they create and the more our real freedoms are taken away in the name of "fighting terrorism" and "national security." Since I never "served," donít take my word for it; listen (here and here) to Army veteran and now president of the Future of Freedom Foundation, Jacob Hornberger, who has been arguing this very point for years.

Something is always sacrificed for a reason and a purpose. An accidental death is not a sacrifice. An unnecessary death is not a sacrifice. A death in vain is not a sacrifice. A senseless death is not a sacrifice. A death that is not required is not a sacrifice. The thousands of U.S. soldiers who have died fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan did not sacrifice themselves for freedom or anything else. Their lives were wasted. They were wasted because their deaths were both pointless and preventable.

Do U.S. soldiers perform any service that is honorable, necessary, and worthy of thanks? Do they defend the United States by securing its borders, guarding its shores, patrolling its coasts, or watching its skies? Fighting foreign wars is not serving. Bombing and destroying Iraq and Afghanistan is not serving. Killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans is not serving. Occupying countries is not serving. Playing golf on a U.S. military golf course while stationed in Japan is not serving. These are just ways of earning a paycheck for being part of the presidentís personal attack force.

Of course, the worst thing that Milton did was to say that soldiers imitate Christ. He went on to say this once more in his article: "Christ is the captain of our salvation, and we will serve our nation, our people, in some way, as a pale but earnest imitation of His life and death on Calvaryís cross." U.S. soldiers donít deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence with the Lord Jesus Christ Ė the Prince of Peace. Just because Christ died and soldiers die doesnít mean that the two deaths are somehow related. Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. The American soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan didnít die for us, unless you mean the U.S. imperial presidency, U.S. hegemony, the U.S. empire, the U.S. military, the U.S. military-industrial complex, U.S. foreign policy, and the U.S. national security state. Do soldiers imitate Christ when they bomb and shoot, when they invade and occupy, when they plunder and pillage, or when they maim and kill?

Rather than Veterans Day being, as Milton concludes, "a holy day when mortal men and women remind us of the service and sacrifice of Jesus Christ," I think it is rather an unholy day when mortal men and women are wrongly exalted over the service and sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

December 3, 2012

Laurence M. Vance [send him mail] writes from central Florida. He is the author of Christianity and War and Other Essays Against the Warfare State, The Revolution that Wasn't, Rethinking the Good War, and The Quatercentenary of the King James Bible. His latest book is The War on Drugs Is a War on Freedom. Visit his website.

Copyright © 2012 by LewRockwell.com. Permission to reprint in whole or in part is gladly granted, provided full credit is given.
avatar
American Zombie
Boss

Number of posts : 5970
Registration date : 2008-01-19

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard62.html

Back to top Go down

Re: Anti war Christian vs pro war Christians

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum