Truth (a philosophical Chat Box debate on the meaning of truth)

[12:47:31 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : thats the basis of out society
[12:47:59 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : a beginning and end, left wing right wing..etc
[12:48:31 22/07/12] elvo : whats that thing u posted i dont understand it
[12:49:14 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : ya know, tha mayans/aztec/ native north and south americans, had a different concept or view of time and of life
[12:50:06 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : everything was cyclical, there was no beginning or end or opposing views.
[12:50:16 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : what thing elvo?
[12:50:40 22/07/12] elvo : dialetic
[12:51:56 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : aztecs/mayans/incansK
[12:52:03 22/07/12] elvo : why is it they blast the media about this movie but dont talk about the proverty in americas ghetto and the lost trapped ppl in poor enviorments which have no choice but to steal and kill
[12:52:30 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : its just a way of molding or shaping the views and reactions of the general public
[12:52:37 22/07/12] elvo : there was 30 deaths in anbernadino
[12:52:46 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : thats because those societies founded themsevles on ilogical pluralistic reasoning
[12:53:00 22/07/12] elvo : none were on news channel no one sadly gave a hit about them
[12:53:12 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : illogical?
[12:53:33 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : those people arent aprt of the plan elvo
[12:53:36 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : so they dont care
[12:53:38 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : everything is everything, there is no universal truth, what may be true to you may not be true to me etc...that's plurastic illogic
[12:54:03 22/07/12] elvo : thats just opinion
[12:54:08 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : that doesnt seem illogical to me
[12:54:08 22/07/12] elvo : reason is truth
[12:54:14 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : seems very logical
[12:54:14 22/07/12] elvo : fact is truth
[12:54:20 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : evertings relative
[12:54:27 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : everybody these days has become a self-entitled prick
[12:54:51 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : it's contradictory to logic, actually, DT
[12:55:03 22/07/12] elvo : so if i say jump off a bridge because im god will you or what would u do? to keep from making u decide?
[12:55:08 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : there are laws of logic, and relativism breaks those laws
[12:55:23 22/07/12] elvo : yea
[12:55:23 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : whos laws?
[12:55:57 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : objective absolute truth HAS to exist
[12:56:22 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : the people that told you those laws are true were probably freemasons themselves....the illuminated ones form the Renascence
[12:56:27 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : its basic deduction from sound reasoning
[12:56:35 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : lol....uh no.
[12:56:51 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : my truth may not be your truth
[12:56:57 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : logic is a universal truth just as math is
[12:57:04 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : uh yea
[12:57:16 22/07/12] elvo : go burn yourself wont hurt thats my truth am i wrong then?
[12:57:32 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : so DT, do you believe that there are NO absolute truths?
[12:58:19 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : we could be in the same exact situation in life as we speak. and i could think life sucks and want to kill myself, that would be my truth. you might be fine and dandy with it and be happy for th rest of your life
[12:58:25 22/07/12] elvo : omg not coccboi
[12:58:32 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : just depends on how oyu view it, relative
[12:58:46 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : so, again, NO absolute truths, right?
[12:58:59 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : lol
[12:59:00 22/07/12] elvo : that just means your lost man
[12:59:03 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : just answer yes or no
[12:59:06 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : dont put words in my mouths
[12:59:44 22/07/12] elvo : for example you have all that you need to survive a mid hands a body a mouth you can fight
[12:59:52 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : well, straddling the fence on this matter isnt helping me understand your position, which is why i ask. not even remotely trying to "put words into your mouth"
[13:00:10 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : its a simple question.
[13:00:14 22/07/12] elvo : if you dont utilize them that your fualt not lifes truth
[13:00:32 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : i never said no absolute truths or universal truths
[13:00:32 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : and by the looks of what youre saying here, im leaning towards you believe that absolute truths dont exist
[13:00:56 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : it just depends on how a persons view on any matter may be
[13:01:15 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : its an individual thing
[13:01:26 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : one person universe may not be anothers
[13:01:35 22/07/12] elvo : truth isnt a opinion it is fact you just dont know the reason
[13:02:02 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : give me an example of a universal truth
[13:02:21 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : so i can better understand what your saying
[13:02:44 22/07/12] elvo : ok lets say someone says life sux like youy aid you ask why they say ppl die and are poor and wars rapes
[13:03:11 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : truth is that which affirms propositionally the nature of reality as it is, regardless of what ones opinion or particular world view may affirm to them.
[13:03:28 22/07/12] elvo : well i say life has given you all the rosurces u need to survive plants vegatales your body air sun night
[13:03:34 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : not a definition
[13:03:36 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : an example
[13:03:39 22/07/12] elvo : that is truth you can survive regardless
[13:04:22 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : math is a universal truth. 2 + 2 always = 4. someone may disagree with that, but it remains true regardless of that individual
[13:04:28 22/07/12] elvo : a system of war rape and stravation is all the outcome of mans decisons on how they act so its a truth that life has given you all u need why does it suck it dosent your just blind
[13:04:52 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : the very isntance of someone saying that absolute truth cannot exist is self-contradictory
[13:04:55 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : those arent necessarily given to you elvo. you have to work for food and water now.
[13:05:18 22/07/12] elvo : but hasent ;life giuven you the tools
[13:05:24 22/07/12] elvo : your hand your mind
[13:05:44 22/07/12] elvo : your enviroment
[13:06:13 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : how can someone say no absolute truths exist, when the very instance of them saying such a thing implies the very thing which they are denying?
[13:06:18 22/07/12] elvo : the thing is the way life is now we are trpped by systems of governemt and ideas
[13:06:31 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : people can take that away, depending on your situation elvo. thats why its relative
[13:06:33 22/07/12] elvo : A good example is the omish people
[13:06:51 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : its just basic logic. and taking that position is self-defeating and easily refutable as you can see with the illustration i just gave
[13:07:16 22/07/12] elvo : the truth is if you reason and see that the truth is the truth ppl wont unless they reason for selfish reasons
[13:07:19 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : i get what your saying about math
[13:07:50 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : but 1 = 1 doesnt always equal 2...if you look at it differently
[13:07:53 22/07/12] elvo : we have power
[13:07:59 22/07/12] elvo : to unite
[13:08:09 22/07/12] elvo : thats a comes from our mind
[13:08:14 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : *1+1
[13:08:48 22/07/12] elvo : if someone misuses their mind its not my fualt he has been given the tools to learn about right and rong on his own just like i have
[13:09:06 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : you might see 1 as a just one and put it with another one and have 2
[13:09:28 22/07/12] elvo : i dont control ppl but everyone is seceptiable to the same reasoning and that is truth because we are all equal
[13:09:44 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : my one could just be one part of a whole and thereor could equal one two or just one half of a whole
[13:09:46 22/07/12] elvo : and have been given the same tools
[13:10:40 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : ok, if you guys are seriously giving thought to this then i invite you to watch these videos.
[13:10:45 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
[13:10:48 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : now with all that being said, there are absolute truths.
[13:11:04 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : we all die
[13:11:36 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : thre are certain scientific truths
[13:11:57 22/07/12] elvo : ok dt
[13:11:59 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : but originally i was speaking of just individuals views of "truth"
[13:12:08 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : cuhz truth itself is reletive
[13:12:16 22/07/12] elvo : isnt true we all have the same potiental to reach the same outcome?
[13:12:33 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : i dont really know elvo
[13:12:35 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : possibly
[13:12:47 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : most likely not tho
[13:12:52 22/07/12] elvo : ppls view s are manipulatied by their lif outcomes
[13:13:23 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : yup
[13:13:32 22/07/12] elvo : the thing is we need help to accomplish our goals and if we helped each other it would be possiable
[13:13:35 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : and not eveyones "lifes outcomes" are the same
[13:14:07 22/07/12] elvo : but in order to find unity we must educate ourselvs to understand that principle like the omish
[13:14:13 22/07/12] elvo : OMISH
[13:14:43 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : we can argue about ogic all day, and you can show me all the videos. what i speak is my truth. and what you think may be your truth kyte.
[13:15:03 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : which kinks proves what im saying.
[13:15:30 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : one of us may be wrong. but my truth is my truth until its not anymore.
[13:15:53 22/07/12] elvo : not really you know im right you just choose to not follow it the truth is the outcome is attainable by all but not all go for it
[13:16:24 22/07/12] elvo : which you arnt using your tools
[13:16:31 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : so a kid in mexico can be the president of the usa?
[13:16:35 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : that's not how logic works DT
[13:16:37 22/07/12] elvo : yep
[13:16:49 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : or a child born in the amzon jungle can be the pope?
[13:17:04 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : that is actually a contradictory postion, you're just not realizing it.
[13:17:11 22/07/12] elvo : sur
[13:17:13 22/07/12] elvo : e
[13:17:13 22/07/12] elvo : e
[13:17:30 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : i realize what you were saying before
[13:17:32 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : if truth is relative to the individual, then what right does one have in raising any kind of moral objection to the attrocities commited by people hitler, stallin, or mussolni? these men all believed in their minds that what they were doing was right and justifiable. hitler believed exterminating jews was right. so why then was he wrong in beleving so if all truth is contingent upon individual beliefs?
[13:17:35 22/07/12] elvo : but pope is a system of ideology so why would he want to
[13:17:44 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : saying there are no absolute truths is itslef an absolute truth
[13:18:10 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : you abviously didnt read some of what i said
[13:18:17 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : *obviously
[13:18:35 22/07/12] elvo : because reason dissproves lies
[13:18:46 22/07/12] elvo : causing pain akes ppl suffer so its bad
[13:18:47 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : if i feel like murdering your children today, and i feel that it is right in my mind, then why should i be held in question of that action? its my "truth" afterall, right?
[13:18:55 22/07/12] elvo : 'you dont like to suffer yourself
[13:19:03 22/07/12] elvo : so you know its wrong
[13:19:09 22/07/12] elvo : you just lie to yourself
[13:19:16 22/07/12] elvo : read buddism
[13:19:19 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : "saying there are no absolute truths is itslef an absolute truth" exactly, but how do you not see that you've already contradicted this statement?
[13:19:24 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : again....scroll up and read what i posted
[13:19:34 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : i already did
[13:19:39 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : plus i said truth and you threw in the absolute part...
[13:19:53 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : you contradicted yourself several times already
[13:19:59 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : so you got the part where i said there are absolute truths?
[13:20:14 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : the very word "TRUTH" implies absoluteness lol
[13:20:50 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : yes, i did. but i fail to realize how you hold that position when in other statements you made you contradict it
[13:20:52 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : ok than im arguing the definition of the word truth
[13:21:03 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : not the fact that there may be absolute truths
[13:21:08 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : that's relativism in the works^
[13:21:10 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : lol
[13:21:21 22/07/12] elvo : plus in the end i control my minsate because i use my tool to reason so we all can reach that outcome of peace
[13:21:56 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : lol you seem to take the stance that becase you konw the definition of words that im wrong ...lol
[13:22:20 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : ?
[13:22:37 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : a table is a table merely because someone told you that thats what it is called.
[13:22:51 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : stop posting for a second guys...im trying to re-read DT's statements so i dont misunderstand him
[13:23:00 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : there may be absolute truths in the world, which i do beleive there are.
[13:23:33 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : but thinking that all "truths" are absolute just doesnt work for me
[13:23:35 22/07/12] elvo : and i can say its this or that but we all use a language that relates to what we are talking about we wee given a mouth and mind to use
[13:23:52 22/07/12] elvo : so we use it
[13:24:06 22/07/12] elvo : if not its a watste wouldent you agree?
[13:24:19 22/07/12] elvo : if you dont burn! lol
[13:24:26 22/07/12] elvo : jk
[13:24:46 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : simply becasue you can believe in your heart and soul that anything your saying is correct and is truth" and that becomes truth to you. and you can be wrong. so its not absolute
[13:25:11 22/07/12] elvo : so prove to me how im wrong and ill tell you why im right
[13:25:28 22/07/12] elvo : and see if you agree
[13:26:21 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : i asked the following: if truth is relative to the individual, then what right does one have in raising any kind of moral objection to the attrocities commited by people hitler, stallin, or mussolni? these men all believed in their minds that what they were doing was right and justifiable. hitler believed exterminating jews was right. so why then was he wrong in beleving so if all truth is contingent upon individual beliefs? you stated the following earlier in the discussion: DT "we can argue about ogic all day, and you can show me all the videos. what i speak is my truth. and what you think may be your truth kyte." so again i ask, why then does society cast the evil eye on people like hitler? if truth is relative to the individual, then hitlers actions are justified by his own beliefs and set of truths.
[13:26:34 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : you stated the following earlier in the discussion: DT "we can argue about ogic all day, and you can show me all the videos. what i speak is my truth. and what you think may be your truth kyte."
[13:26:43 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : so again i ask, why then does society cast the evil eye on people like hitler? if truth is relative to the individual, then hitlers actions are justified by his own beliefs and set of truths.
[13:27:28 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : that first part is my argument
[13:27:37 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : its utterly contradictory reasoning to say the least
[13:27:38 22/07/12] elvo : i know the anser to that lol
[13:27:47 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : LOL....your argument?
[13:27:52 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : no i just dont think you understand
[13:28:02 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : and your argument is what im saying
[13:28:24 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : DT, read my post about hitler, and then read your statement i posted following mine
[13:28:30 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : read it very carefully.
[13:28:30 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : his truth was his truth. and societies is societies. they cant oth be right can they?
[13:29:08 22/07/12] elvo : hitler was just a selfish child
[13:29:16 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : "and your argument is what im saying" ok, so then why does this following statement of yours contradict it?
[13:29:18 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : DT "we can argue about ogic all day, and you can show me all the videos. what i speak is my truth. and what you think may be your truth kyte."
[13:30:08 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : what are you saying???? say it rather than argue symantics. im trying to prove a point and your just arguing symantics
[13:30:45 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : i dot hink they contridict
[13:31:07 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : explain to me how they do
[13:32:26 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : im not even remotely arguing semantics here...dont know where your going with that
[13:32:47 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : i think your still arguing about absolute truth
[13:32:48 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : ive plainly and clearly shown what my position is here
[13:32:55 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : you havent though
[13:33:03 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : which is what im trying to figure out here
[13:33:12 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : ivve said it aa few times
[13:33:39 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : you claim there are absolute truths, but then follow that up by saying that truth is relative.
[13:33:40 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : i thnk you either jsut havnt seen it or skipped over it or are not understanding
[13:34:02 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : ok....give me a second here. lets start from the begining again, shall we?
[13:34:08 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : ok thats where i think your not getting my argument
[13:34:18 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : im going to type in word because chatboxK is too small
[13:34:22 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : brb
[13:34:54 22/07/12] elvo : im still active just readin
[13:36:01 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : there may be absolute truths in the world, which i do beleive there are, but thinking that all "truths" are absolute just doesnt work for me(the word "truths" being in quotations for a reason)_
[13:36:38 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : simply becasue what you may think is the "truth" may not be.
[13:39:11 22/07/12] elvo : yea thats true thats why you have to educate yourself but again if something isnt true its mostly because it was decided by someones decision which means they reason
[13:40:42 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : ok
[13:41:06 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : ok, firstly, lets establish what truth and absolutness entail: truth: the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality. absoluteness: Law Complete and unconditional; final. independent of arbitrary standards of measurement
[13:41:34 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : # 1 truth implies absoluteness.
[13:41:47 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : ok now
[13:41:59 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : adressing this from the beginning
[13:42:00 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : than i would either dispute the definition or suggest a new wor for what people to believe is the truth.
[13:42:12 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : *word
[13:42:43 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : claim # 1 "all truth is relative." if all truth is relative, then the statement "all truth is relative" would be absolutely true. if it is absolutely true, then not all things are relative and the statement that "ll truth is relative" is false
[13:43:17 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : claim # 2 "theree are no absolute truths." the statement "there are no absolute truths" is an absolute statement which is supposed to be true. therefore, it is an absolute truth and "there are no absolute truths" is false.... If there are no absolute truths, then you cannot believe anything absolutely at all, including that there are no absolute truths. therefore, nothing could be really true for you ... including relativism.
[13:43:21 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : already not what i said
[13:43:38 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : also not what i said
[13:44:13 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : this isnt towards your statement, remember, i said lets take this from the beginning
[13:44:30 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : read what im saying, this isnt directed towards your statement per se
[13:44:39 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : im establishing a premise here
[13:44:53 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : "what is true for youu is not true for me" if what is true for me is that relativism is false, then is it true that relativism is false? iif you say no, then what is true for me is not true and relativism is false. if you say yes, then relativism is false.
[13:44:57 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : ok
[13:46:15 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : wha tif i say it is false and true
[13:46:47 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : if you say that it is true only for me that relativism is false, then i am believing something other than relativism; namely, that relativism is false...if that is true, then how can relativism be true??
[13:47:20 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : If it is true for me that relativism is false, then relativism (within me) holds the position that relativism is false...this is self-contradictory.
[13:47:42 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : DT "wha tif i say it is false and true", this is precisley why i linked you to that video.
[13:47:59 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : ok
[13:48:10 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : than i would say again.
[13:48:22 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : which is my problem.
[13:48:33 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : and i think why your not understanding me.
[13:48:38 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : take a minute to watch this
[13:48:42 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
[13:48:42 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : the word "truth"
[13:48:59 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : i dont need to watch a video to explain what i said, ill watch it tho
[13:49:49 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : again tho. i would be arguing about, i guess it would be the "wrod" truth, lacking a better way to explain myself.
[13:50:13 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : there is absolute truth. fact
[13:50:47 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : what we may think is truth, in some cases, not all, is not truth
[13:51:14 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : there is only absolute truth, being that only thinkgs that are absolute are true
[13:51:21 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : its not to expalin anything, just to give you insight on what these arguements are based on
[13:51:32 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : remember, you claim to accept that absolute truths do exist, but then you followed it with this statement: DT "we can argue about ogic all day, and you can show me all the videos. WHAT I SPEAK IS MY TRUTH. AND WHAT YOU THINK MAY BE YOUR TRUTH KYTE." how do you not see the self contradictory nature of your statements?
[13:51:57 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : everything else that isnt and "absolute truth" isnt "truth"
[13:52:08 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : "what we may think is truth, in some cases, not all, is not truth" i can agree with that, but where do you then draw the line?
[13:52:25 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : please read what i just typed im tryin to explain my train of thought
[13:53:23 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : just read them
[13:53:39 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : so givin that truth is absolute
[13:54:30 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : what we sometimes to be believe to be "truth" isnt at all
[13:54:43 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : just trying to lay some ground work here before we continue
[13:54:46 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : if it is false for me that relativism is false, then relativism isn't true because what is true for me is not said to be true for me. iff you say it is neither true or false, then relativism isn't true since it states that all views are equally valid; and by not being at least true, relativism is shown to be wrong.
[13:54:55 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : do you agree with that ^?
[13:55:17 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : what we sometimes to be believe to be "truth" isnt at all
[13:55:40 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : remember, this isnt towards any of your statements per se, just to establish a common ground here
[13:56:46 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : what we sometimes to be believe to be "truth" isnt at all"....and i can agree with that 100/%, but that isnt what im questioning you about
[13:56:47 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : hold on a sec
[13:57:07 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : sure
[13:57:42 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : if it is false for me that relativism is false, then relativism isn't true because what is true for me is not said to be true for me.
[13:58:29 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : thaqn i guess i dont beleive in relatvism...i beleive in something completely different and the word "relative" isnt the right word to use
[13:58:32 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : if I believe that relativism is false, and if it is true only for me that it is false, then you must admit that it is absolutely true that i am believing that relativism false.
[13:58:56 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : yay or nay? ^
[13:59:26 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : thaqn i guess i dont beleive in relatvism...i beleive in something completely different and the word "relative" isnt the right word to use" ok, then can you at least define what this belief is?
[13:59:37 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : if you havent already
[13:59:50 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : if you have then tell me where you said it so i can scroll up
[13:59:56 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : i guess it would be hard to explain
[14:00:06 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : LOL....DAMMIT.
[14:00:22 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : we should have have this discussion in one of the new sections
[14:00:36 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : shoulld have had*
[14:00:44 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : lol absolute truth is relative...lol jk
[14:00:54 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : this doesnt fit into any of the catergories we made though
[14:01:07 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : maybe ..just follow me for a sec
[14:01:22 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : we all have different views of the same truth?
[14:01:29 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : i think i kind of understand what youre trying to say
[14:01:48 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : so in a indivual level it is reletive but its still absolute?
[14:02:10 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : but, im not sure i fully follow. and your earlier statements contribute to my inability to follow, since they seem to contradict one another
[14:02:32 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : give me a sec
[14:03:16 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : make a philosophical debate section...
[14:07:52 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : back
[14:08:10 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : hmmm...sounds good, but don't know if anybody would be interested
[14:09:15 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : "we all have different views of the same truth?" i partially disagree. i say what we really have are differing views of self- perceived differing "truths". and if that is your argument, then i understand, HOWEVER, my entire argument has been about WHY individually based "truths" cannot exist and why such is contradictory to basic logic.
[14:09:16 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : i think the regs might be
[14:09:17 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : cray
[14:09:19 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : 2 cents
[14:09:20 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : jae
[14:09:25 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : bullet? jae?
[14:09:29 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : lol....
[14:09:34 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : bullets bound to weigh in
[14:09:53 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : bullet is actually pretty good at presenting arguments
[14:10:03 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : even though hes a prick
[14:10:17 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : "we all have different views of the same truth?" i partially disagree. i say what we really have are differing views of self- perceived differing "truths". and if that is your argument, then i understand, HOWEVER, my entire argument has been about WHY individually based "truths" cannot exist and why such is contradictory to basic logic.
[14:10:35 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : HOWEVER, my entire argument has been about WHY individually based "truths" cannot exist and why such is contradictory to basic logic.
[14:10:37 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : i thnk i a fucked up way weve been arguing the same damn thing
[14:10:46 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : your aiming at something else here indeed
[14:10:57 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : IDK
[14:11:04 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : im confused too lol...
[14:11:18 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : individually based "truths" cannot exist
[14:11:34 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : its just that you threw me off earlier when you said what you said
[14:11:36 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : thats what i was saying when i dsipute the word "truth"
[14:11:44 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : OHHHHHHHH
[14:11:52 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : ok, well, i understood that.
[14:12:04 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : so in a way
[14:12:23 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : i was saying reletive truth is and individual truth which isnt truth at all
[14:12:29 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : but didnt you say that "my truth is my truth, and your truf is your truth?" or where you just making a point about something else?
[14:12:37 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : and there are absolute truths, which is real truth
[14:13:07 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : that's the only thing i didnt understand about your statements
[14:13:21 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : * i was saying relative truth is individual truth which isnt truth at all
[14:13:22 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : and there are absolute truths, which is real truth" yes. i agree
[14:13:35 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : OK, got that
[14:14:06 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : LOL...so what in the hell were disagreeing at?
[14:14:07 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : maybe thats why it was so hard to understand each others arguments lol
[14:14:25 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : we were saying the same thing in different ways.
[14:14:34 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : well, i thought i made myself pretty clear in what i was arguing.
[14:14:46 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : you need to dunmb down things sometimes ...lol
[14:15:13 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : based on that comment, i thought you were saying truth is essentially relative
[14:15:26 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : the my truth is my truth comment
[14:15:39 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : my intellectual abilities are not derived from proper schooling...lol
[14:15:46 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : lol...we drove elvo away
[14:15:54 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : mine arent either haha
[14:15:59 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : ok. i kinda was but you never let me get to my point! lol
[14:16:13 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : schoolK...well, at least for certain things im schoolK
[14:16:16 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : i thought you were saying truth is essentially relative
[14:16:28 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : it is, to the individual
[14:16:44 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : which makes individual truths not truth at all.
[14:17:13 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : ok, but remember, i was arguing that TRUTH, real TRUTH, is definietly not relative
[14:17:28 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : i guess i just missed that part of yours
[14:17:33 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : so, to the individual, "truth" is reletive,
[14:17:44 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : which woul dmake it not true
[14:18:01 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : lol....maybe a better way of saying that would help next time. that's what confused me.
[14:18:22 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : so inturn. your "truth" is not my "truth" because it is in fact not truth at all, because truth is absolute
[14:18:33 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : any time i hear "truth is relative" in that context, i assume that's what the person believes
[14:18:41 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : oh
[14:19:12 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : so inturn. your "truth" is not my "truth" because it is in fact not truth at all, because truth is absolute" this is how much of the society functions
[14:19:15 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : well like i said, im not preoperly schooled so i may not ahve the abiltiy to explain things int he most clear manner
[14:19:36 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : so inturn. your "truth" is not my "truth" because it is in fact not truth at all, because truth is absolute" this is how much of the society functions
[14:19:54 22/07/12] @ NYTE RYDA : no, you explained yourself good enough, it was just a bit hard to understand at first
[14:19:55 22/07/12] @ DontxTrip : ^^^ my staement exactly, which is what sparked this whole convo! lol

please feel free to jump in with your thoughts on truth

Hopefully someone is willing to actually read through all of that mess LOL

NYTE RYDA wrote:Hopefully someone is willing to actually read through all of that mess LOL

lol i was gonna make it look niceer at least but fuck that...shits too long lol

I think the topic was doomed from the start.

First of all, everyone has to be on the same page of definition for "truth."
That IMO is where the chat dragged along and Nyte did try to resolve that obstacle.

Some synonyms could have been used instead of truth, like:

'Personal beliefs' (defined by the individual, i.e. relative)
'Perceived reality' (defined by the individual, i.e. relative)
'Hypothesis' (an idea waiting to be proved true or false)
'Theory' (an idea waiting to be proved true or false)
'Fact' (as in scientifically proven to be true, i.e. truth)

When you're talking personal beliefs, of course this is going to be relative to individual influential experiences and this is usually the case when 'truth' is the topic.

However, it is possible that some personal beliefs can be 'fact' while remaining at most just a theory to some and just a personal belief to others who are intellectually challenged, uneducated, emotional thinkers, who rely on gut feelings rather than taking the time to research thoroughly, or that they believe blindly what authorities and educators tell them without asking critically logical questions. Another reason could be that others just don't care and the best that they can contribute to the topic (as if they're supposed to) is their sarcasm.

This wasn't a formal debate by any means. And actually, the debate was never about "the meaning of truth", which is why there was so much disagreement. I was arguing that absolute truth does in fact exist and that relativism is a bankrupt point of view .

DT's argument was something unrelated and I had some confusion on that, but only due to the fact that I mistook one of his statements for something else. This topic is broad and somewhat complex, I don't think it is possible to thoroughly dissect every facet of it in one sitting of a chat box.

truth is what you make it out to be
if its true in your mind
then it is true to you
it doesn't have to be true to me
but it is true to you
the rest, is just and agreement
on what is truth
but if you were to disect truth
you would need to use math

Ok what I want to say I suck at typing fast and explain, so i have time, in my experience truth is reason or consciousness I will explain why.

Majority of the world is born with the same body and mind. How do I know this it is proven by science that everyone is made of the same substance atoms and elements. Since the majority of us are blessed with a body and stable mind we that are born normally, have the same way of achieving the same outcome, which is our happiness.Since most of us have a stable mind we are able to reason and think and make decisions. Consciousness is the ability to make decisions while thinking it through and putting it through scrutiny. So with conciseness alone we are able to reason and figure out logic and fact. quoted from 2pac "Niggas know what we got to do we just got to put our minds to it and do it" what that statement means is consciousness is the catalyst of all logic and fact which means it is the catalyst of truth which means it is absolute.

For example the example nyte gave up there

hitler mussiolini and etc

These men reasoned I bet if you cut off one of their fingers they will not like it why because suffering causes pain which is a basic thought process we all learn when we are young. So these individuals with their minds know the truth is inflicting pain on someone that does not want it is bad and immoral because they have reasoned at some point in their life that they themselves can relate to all humans. They know the truth but if they decide to lie to themselves and justify their reasons through selfish reasons then they are just stupid. Why because they know the truth because of reason and their ability to think. Like for example answer me this if someone puts their hand on a stove top while the fire is on what do you think his reaction wll be? He will not do it again why because of his ability to perceive we have choices in all of life but we also have reason and reason is what separates us from men and idiots.