Can a man be Liberal and Christian at the same time?

You argue it. Get a debate going.

Define Liberal...you mean like Left wing modern day progressive or Liberal in its classical tradition?

Freedom Propagandist wrote:Define Liberal...you mean like Left wing modern day progressive or Liberal in its classical tradition?

Obviously modern day LOL

I'd like a Christian liberal that supports heavy taxation (theft) to justify it and explain the taxation that goes towards funding things that they do not support such as abortion funding, and wars of aggression . Is it compatible with their faith?

Freedom Propagandist wrote:I'd like a Christian liberal that supports heavy taxation (theft) to justify it and explain the taxation that goes towards funding things that they do not support such as abortion funding, and wars of aggression . Is it comparable with their faith?

Exactly what I am saying. It's not impossible, but they have to be either really naive, or just calling themselves something they are not. A liberal christian is the equivalent of a Christian Evolution Theorist. You have one belief and you stick too it, since the other goes against, or contradicts your beliefs.

I brought this up because I have many times encountered people that claim that this is who they are. I don't doubt that believe in Christ, but most assuredly they just don't want to let go of one belief. What I want to know is what drives people in to believing they can be both, other then pure ignorance.

I also found this website.

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These days I think it's harder to find a Christian liberal but I know they're out there. Most of the hard Left today are a bunch of arrogant authoritarian minded "stathiests" that view Christianity as being for anti science right wing trash without realizing that they themselves are still in church because all they've done is replace God with the state. Which makes what little Christian liberals that are left a bit suspect because in order to be a liberal today requires putting Alot of your hope for mankind in the power of state coercion rather than the God of the bible.

Joseph Smith wrote:I also found this website.

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. Good find. I'm going to try refuting them on a few things later on.

Go republicans freedom

Freedom Propagandist wrote:

Joseph Smith wrote:I also found this website.

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. Good find. I'm going to try refuting them on a few things later on.

Yeah I will read more of it later on when I have some free time but it was kind of interesting.

I have just as much, if not more, criticisms of the Christian Right than I do the Christian Left illie..

Freedom Propagandist wrote:These days I think it's harder to find a Christian liberal but I know they're out there. Most of the hard Left today are a bunch of arrogant authoritarian minded "stathiests" that view Christianity as being for anti science right wing trash without realizing that they themselves are still in church because all they've done is replace God with the state. Which makes what little Christian liberals that are left a bit suspect because in order to be a liberal today requires putting Alot of your hope for mankind in the power state coercion rather than the God of the bible.

Its actually quite funny because of the many "atheist" cases I've ran into when it comes to liberals. My sister is one. The majority of them view God as a horrible person "if he exists"(as they like to say). They try comparing him to Hitler for causing a flood. I know the majority of their argument statements since I have studied a little apologetic's for new age theorist(Liberals).

Try and find ways to contradict their sayings in that site though, I been wanting to learn some better apologetic statements for when I run into them since I know quite a few.

“The Christian Left” -- left hate behind; left prejudice; left callous attitudes; and followed Jesus as HE left the 99 in the fold, to go find the ones who were lost, ignored, excluded, overlooked, abandoned, uncared-for -- all “the least of these.” We left hard-heartedness in order to be like the Samaritan who stopped to care for those in need.


James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. James 2:15-16 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?

Does caring for those in need, involve using state coercion in order to rob one group to care for someone in need? Did Jesus teach people to care for people in need by devoting their own time and resources to those in need or did he advocate lobbying the state?

The most common religious viewpoint which might be described as ‘left wing’ is social justice, or care for the poor and the oppressed. Supporters of this might encourage universal health care, welfare provision, subsidized education, foreign aid, and Affirmative Action for improving the conditions of the disadvantaged. Stemming from egalitarian values (and what Jesus Himself said), adherents of the Christian left consider it part of their religious duty to take actions on behalf of the oppressed.

My response above is the same here. But also, did Jesus want subsidized "education" in secular schools where his message will be forbidden to teach?

The Christian Left holds that social justice, renunciation of power, humility, forgiveness, and private observation of prayer (as opposed to publicly mandated prayer), are mandated by the Gospel (Matthew 6:5-6). The Bible contains accounts of Jesus repeatedly advocating for the poor and outcast over the wealthy, powerful, and religious.

Did Jesus advocate soaking the rich, robbing them at the point of a sword and giving the loot to the poor? (That's a serious question, I honestly don't know.)

Adhering to the standard of “turning the other cheek,” which they believe supersedes the Old Testament law of “an eye for an eye,” the Christian Left often hearkens towards pacifism in opposition to policies advancing militarism.

This is where the Liberals, IMO, got it right, as opossed to the blood thirsty right wing.

However, their overall faith and support of the state as an institution, and their enthusiastic support for heavy taxation sort of makes their opposition to militarism phony..Maybe not phony, but if you took the issue seriously, you would refuse to pay a single tax dollar until the government completely stopped fighting wars of aggression in your name. Or at least, advocate that, since refusing payment will get you in prison.

The Christian Left sometimes differs from other Christian political groups on issues including homosexuality. This is often not a matter of different religious ideas, but one of focus — viewing the prohibitions against killing, or the criticism of concentrations of wealth, as far more important than social issues emphasized by the religious right, such as opposition to active homosexuality. In this case, similar to philosophies expressed by writers such as C.S. Lewis, these members of the Christian Left believe homosexual sex to be overemphasized when compared with issues relating to social justice, or even matters of sexual morality involving heterosexual sex. Bottom Line: We welcome ALL to their place at God’s table, just as they are. All means ALL. No exceptions. We reject all attempts to define our Faith by the two wedge issues of Gay Marriage and Abortion. -- End of Wikipedia content.

That's all well and good, I guess. But what about the fact that your tax dollars will be going towards supporting the institutions and lifestyles you're not supposed to condone?

Many folks stop by and tell us to keep up the great work in the name of Christian Charity. Charity is only part of the message. The danger here is allowing it to become about charity only, rather than social justice as well. Charity tries to fix up people so that the system will work better. Justice tries to fix up the system so that people will work better. We agree that a charitable attitude is important ... but it does not address the root of the problem, a system that sets up obstacles and barriers that make it nearly impossible for people to break the cycle of poverty, or the cycle of victimization, or marginalization, or the cycle of ...; Again, Jesus came to set the captives free. Colloquially charity clearly means to help someone with their immediate needs. Justice suggests that something deeper happens. Charity allows the cycle to repeat, justice readdresses that system that causes the cycle. Charity is as much about the giver as the one receiving. Justice is solely about the one receiving. Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime. The System will never be perfect here on Earth, so Charity will always be required, but that’s no excuse to not advocate for The System to be just for all. When it is, the need for Charity decreases. The two are inextricably enmeshed.

Throughout their whole message so far, there seems to be an underlying assumption that people that are not on the Left, do not care about the poor. This is typical of the Left. If you don't agree with their way or their method of helping the poor, then the assumption is that you obviously don't care about the poor. It never does occur to them that maybe their way doesn't work very well and is even immoral.

The last quoted paragraph seems to dismiss charitable work as inadequate and puts a lot of emphasis on "The System"...by system we can only assume they're talking about the guys with badges and guns forcibly taking property from one group to give to another. In other words, the Christian Left, just like the Christian Right, supports mass robbery and violence in order to sustain and improve "The System."

It seems as though the issue is a clearly defined ideal of what Liberalism is.  There is a huge difference between the concepts of economic and social liberalism but they are often thought and spoken of as interchangeable.  Nothing is further from the truth.  Social liberalism encourages the use of government authority to deal with social inequities in specific areas.  For instance gender, race and or economics.  Economic liberalism views the role of government as a means of supporting private ownership and free market expansion while restricting its involvement in domestic issues such as those previously listed.  These are the major difference between the two but differences nonetheless that paralyze and confuse the public.  So can a Christian be a Liberal?  Most would say Christianity is about believing two things.  That Jesus is (1) the son of God and (2) was raised after 3 days in the grave.  If that is your definition of what a Christian is then I would say the answer is yes because these are exclusive ideologies.  I suppose the greater question is was Christ an economic or social liberal?  Or was he a believer in communalism?

I'd say the greater question is whether or not he would be in favor of the use of coercion to redistribute wealth or was he in favor of charity and voluntary trade.

Tumble Town wrote:I'd say the greater question is whether or not he would be in favor of the use of coercion to redistribute wealth or was he in favor of charity and voluntary trade.

Excellent point!

one can start out as a dormant or dogmatic christian catholic, per say, and then move onto the reformed protestant and modern day evangelical ranks, and one can fall in line with either arminianism, calvinism, universalist theology to name but the most prominent views of non-catholic western christianity, but all that is nothing but an old established way of looking at what christianity is., i belive that yes, a christian can be a true liberal in the sense that one has free choice, and one has to experience God for himself/herself, and in the sense that it is by grace and not by works that one is redeemed to the Glory of God., but having said that, having free will, free choice, does not mean that whatever choice you make would be the right one for edifying your soul., if you were not a liberal, then you would have no choice in mind., it is the fact that you are free to think and chose that makes one a liberal, and by defacto a rebel against God., but count it as a blessing, for it is by free liberal choice that one comes to understand the sin we're in., therefore it is not being a liberal that keeps us from being a christian, but sin is the result of our free choices made through liberalism., how else would we come to know and receive grace?

You fools left me hanging on this topic., ran away to watch a ball game or something to dull your spiritual mind.

Yehoshua was a flat out SOCIALIST...kicking over the money lenders tables in the temple, 'it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven', 'the only riches you will take to heaven are those that you give away'...

Jesus felt the Bern 2000 years ago...

So Jesus believed in using the initiation of force and violence to extract wealth from one group of people to give to another group of people? Did he believe in throwing people behind bars if they do not comply with his socialist ideas and shoot them if they resist?

American Zombie wrote:So Jesus believed in using the initiation of force and violence to extract wealth from one group of people to give to another group of people? Did he believe in throwing people behind bars if they do not comply with his socialist ideas and shoot them if they resist?

Where did I say that? democratic socialism is nothing to do with force and violence and throwing people in jail...if I'd said Jesus was a Maoist or a Stalinist I'd take your point... this is why I try and get my terms of reference straight so I'm not misunderstood...

What happens when you don't pay your taxes under democratic socialism?

American Zombie wrote:
What happens when you don't pay your taxes under democratic socialism?

Same thing that happens when you don't pay your taxes now...

chang wrote:

American Zombie wrote:
What happens when you don't pay your taxes under democratic socialism?

Same thing that happens when you don't pay your taxes now...

Exactly.

Give Ceasar his share - In a worldy sense., And give The Lord the "Spiritual dues'., Money is nothing but a passing "fad" ., But the Inner Man, the Inner Man belongs to the Almighty!!! AMEN !!!!