Re: Mexican vs Blacks

.02 cents Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:23 pm

Gloom N Doom wrote:

I

I could be wrong, but it is my assumption that in the 60's, things were bad for people of color, but thanks to protests, and giving people the power to vote, things, as imperfect as they may be, are better.
Things were bad for people of color in the 60s in certain ways, just like things are bad for them today, in certain ways. It all depends on how you measure it. But to say things are better because they have the power to vote would be a stretch. And again, things are better how? In some ways yes, but in many ways no. Let's talk about blacks specifically, black unemployment has been way too high in the last 5 or so years.

Really? Really? No seriously, really? I guess we will have to disagree on this one, and anyone else who feels this way, please jump into this discussion, I'm curious to know how this statement can be justified.

I was going to dig up some statistics but I figured it would be better to just quote Walter Willaims, one of the best economists there is:

A couple of weeks ago, Black Entertainment Television founder Bob Johnson, speaking at The National Press Club, said the nation "would never tolerate white unemployment at 14 and 15 percent." Black unemployment has been double that of white Americans for more than 50 years. The black youth unemployment rate is more than 40 percent nationally. In some cities, unemployment for black working-age males is more than 50 percent. Let's look at this, but first let's look at some history.
From 1900 to 1954, blacks were more active than whites in the labor market. Until about 1960, black male labor force participation in every age group was equal to or greater than that of whites. During that period, black teen unemployment was roughly equal to or less than white teen unemployment. As early as 1900, the duration of black unemployment was 15 percent shorter than that of whites; today it's about 30 percent longer. To do something about today's employment picture requires abandonment of sacred cows and honesty.
But it isn't just employment:

The truth is that black female-headed households were just 18 percent of households in 1950, as opposed to about 68 percent today. In fact, from 1890 to 1940, the black marriage rate was slightly higher than that of whites. Even during slavery, when marriage was forbidden for blacks, most black children lived in biological two-parent families. In New York City, in 1925, 85 percent of black households were two-parent households. A study of 1880 family structure in Philadelphia shows that three-quarters of black families were two-parent households.

The poverty rate among blacks is 36 percent. Most black poverty is found in female-headed households. The poverty rate among black married couples has been in single digits since 1994 and is about 8 percent today. The black illegitimacy rate is 75 percent, and in some cities, it's 90 percent. But if that's a legacy of slavery, it must have skipped several generations, because in the 1940s, unwed births hovered around 14 percent.

Read more: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

So with all that in mind, let's not jump to conclusions that so much was fixed in the 60s due to protests and voting. In many ways, voting was a disaster. It allowed scum bag politicians to bribe voters with snake oil policies that did tremendous damage, not only to blacks, but to everybody. Although I think it is safe to say blacks got hit the worst. Just look up the black murder rates..

Well I guess had we decided not to allow blacks the right to vote things would either be better, or not much worse off then they are right now for them, correct? I would have to disagree with that statement.

I do not believe in segregation myself because I feel it is anti-progressive. If that's the world we choose to live in, there really isn't much difference than prison. Divide and conquer, a great tactic used throughout history to oppress and overpower people, set them against themselves, create more hate, intolerance and misunderstanding of other peoples and cultures.
It isn't so much "segregation" like blacks sit over there and whites sit over here, or "no mexicans allowed in this area" that I'm pushing for. It is about allowing people to live in the society that they want to.

Tell me what is so damn horrible and "negative" about letting people be who they want and live how they want so as long as they don't set out to harm everybody else? That is thee exact opposite of intolerance.

See we can argue forever and ever about whether libertarianism is good or bad, or if the system you support is better, but chances are we aren't going to convince each other. And that's the beauty of separation and decentralization. You DON'T HAVE TO CONVINCE EVERYBODY THAT YOUR WAY IS RIGHT. You can simply meet up with like minded people and create the society you want. That is NOT simply complaining. That is truly taking action...and it also allows you to tolerate and not hate people that think differently than you, because you're giving them the option to do the same thing, which is live in the society that they want. It doesn't make them enemies any more than the US and Canada being separate makes each other enemies; which they're not.

Divide and conquer is what we have now. How many times do we have people complain about Washington DC not doing what the people want? Well it is impossible, because people all over the country want many different things. And we're divided, and there's all this anger and resentment for people of opposing ideologies. Meanwhile, the bad guys run off with the loot..

My point is, if you take a negative short sided perspective, and attempt to justify it with whatever political theology (libertarianism, nationalism, fucking communism, whatever) you leave a lot of room for holes. Libertarianism calls for people to help themselves, what about people who can't(elderly, disabled, etc) let them suffer? Might as well, those people shouldn't have the right to tread on me. Nationalism suggests that everyone keep to themselves. Well, start over, put everything on the table, get everyone there, and give everybody an equal opportunity for success. Yeah, that'll happen. Be realistic. Consider the hand that raised you. If it's wrong, fight against it. Serve others, not your own interests.

I don't understand why my perspective is assumed to be "negative" and short sided. Is it because my proposed solution differs from yours?

Libertarianism doesn't call for people to help themselves.

Although there are different brands of libertarianism, the original and most used definition of it, as also defined by Murray Rothbard who was the main one responsible for the modern day version of it, is based off the Non-Aggression Principal. Which basically says don't initial violence against others unless in cases of self defense. All laws in society should be based off this principal. It states nothing about "help yourself and screw the disabled and poor, let em suffer" or whatever else quacky lefty blogs say it means.

Not to mention, a libertarian economy would IMO, be the best way to take care of the disabled and poor since it would be extremely wealthy...Imagine, no inflation, money that gains value and not loses ...but I don't have to convince you or anyone. Libertarians can simply prove it if the statists were to let us.

I wasn't necessarily talking about you, I just used different terms and variables that you might identify with as examples of a very general perspective. Although the variables were purposefully used because you identify with them, they were not meant to be me referring to you hiding behind hidden terms. It's interesting however, to see your reactions to my comments. If you step back and remove yourself from the variables, you might reinterpret my responses, and though you may still disagree, I bet your approach to the comments changes. But that's just what I think, i could definitely be wrong.

For the most part, I don't care what a person political ideologies are as long as people are consistent, open to discussion and good people. Im not attacking you my boy, me and you are damn near the same so if I am attacking you, I better understand that I am also attacking myself. But again, Im not so im not worried.

You want change, do something about it. Organize with like minded people fighting to make change, protest, civil disobedience, don't take no for an answer. Get people to hear what you have to ay and let them know the importance of voting. Fight from the bottom up, with love, hope and diligence. Because realistically, if that's not what your all about, then you really are doing nothing more than complaining, just like the men behind the shadows want you to do. Be apathetic. Complain behind a computer. Do nothing! Believe in nothing! Have no hope for tomorrow! If that's you, they got you right where they want you, and you don't even know it.
That's the whole idea of things like nullification and secession. It isn't just complaining, it is doing something. Voting is simply throwing your idea into a suggestion box. Useful in some rare cases, but not a real solution.

In Sum, just because someone has a different idea or strategy doesn't mean they're negative with bad intentions.

Good intentions have always been the cause of the greatest atrocities known to man. Ideas without action is a waste of time. Action makes moves! Action! Getting up and educating yourself, fighting on the picket lines, grassroots organizing, rocking the vote, making a difference are all things that are superior to non-action.

.02 cents Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:49 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

This dude reminds of you cray, and I am not mad at him, this dude is real about his shit...: : :mj:

American Zombie Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:09 pm

lol at mountain man.

American Zombie Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:42 pm

I'll respond to certain points throughout the day as I get time.

Good intentions have always been the cause of the greatest atrocities known to man. Ideas without action is a waste of time. Action makes moves! Action! Getting up and educating yourself,

Good intentions have caused many great atrocities. Who is more aware of this than libertarians?

Did you read this:

A couple of weeks ago, Black Entertainment Television founder Bob Johnson, speaking at The National Press Club, said the nation "would never tolerate white unemployment at 14 and 15 percent." Black unemployment has been double that of white Americans for more than 50 years. The black youth unemployment rate is more than 40 percent nationally. In some cities, unemployment for black working-age males is more than 50 percent. Let's look at this, but first let's look at some history.
From 1900 to 1954, blacks were more active than whites in the labor market. Until about 1960, black male labor force participation in every age group was equal to or greater than that of whites. During that period, black teen unemployment was roughly equal to or less than white teen unemployment. As early as 1900, the duration of black unemployment was 15 percent shorter than that of whites; today it's about 30 percent longer. To do something about today's employment picture requires abandonment of sacred cows and honesty.

But it isn't just employment:

The truth is that black female-headed households were just 18 percent of households in 1950, as opposed to about 68 percent today.In fact, from 1890 to 1940, the black marriage rate was slightly higher than that of whites. Even during slavery, when marriage was forbidden for blacks, most black children lived in biological two-parent families. In New York City, in 1925, 85 percent of black households were two-parent households. A study of 1880 family structure in Philadelphia shows that three-quarters of black families were two-parent households.

The poverty rate among blacks is 36 percent. Most black poverty is found in female-headed households. The poverty rate among black married couples has been in single digits since 1994 and is about 8 percent today. The black illegitimacy rate is 75 percent, and in some cities, it's 90 percent. But if that's a legacy of slavery, it must have skipped several generations, because in the 1940s, unwed births hovered around 14 percent.

How quickly we forget women and blacks couldn't vote? Yeah and how quickly we forget that blacks also had in tact family structures, more so than whites, had less or equal unemployment numbers, and were steadily escaping poverty at a fast pace until it was all stalled and ruin by the 1960s.

This is why I always say democracy is a true religion. In every sense of the word. People have this unlimited faith in it, in spite of evidence showing it is not all it is cracked up to be, and in many cases harmful and dangerous.

I'll take it a step further though. It is not so much that I think democracy is ineffective that I usually disapprove of it, it is that it is immoral in the way that it comes with this general belief that mob rule is a good thing. This barbaric idea that might makes right, and minorities fate should be decided by the majority. I don't see anything moral about forcing your will on someone else, whether it be through direct force, person to person, or through a voting booth. Democracy says, let the majority rule the minority. It is also about forcing rulers on other people who may not want to be ruled by them. And if you don't like it, oh well, you get locked in a cage if you don't follow the rules and edicts of the newly elected ruler..

Now about taking action. It sounds like if someone doesn't take the specific actions approved by you, then it amounts to taking no action and complaining?

First of all, in order for anything thing to change on a significant scale, you have to gain enough support among other people. You can't just influence people by voting. You have to win people's minds, which isn't easy. But it is easier to convince 1 million people of your ideas than it is to convince 300 million. This is where secession and nullification comes in. You don't have to convince everybody, or even half of everybody or a majority. You just need enough numbers to break free and start your own. And that IS TAKING ACTION. But it ain't going to just happen if everybody stays quiet and never voices there opinion or "complains." Ideas are more powerful than guns and armies.

Secession doesn't have to result in a dramatic war. My example about the the Americans breaking free from the King wasn't to talk about how they won the war, it was to illustrate the attitude of not begging your master for permission to be free.
I don't advocate for a violent war of secession. I see secession as part of a natural thing that happens over time when certain arrangements no longer work. Like the Soviet Union fell apart of and things had to change.
That's sort of how I see the US in the future. Eventually the bills will come due, the SPOILED Americans(Yes Americans ARE SPOILED) will have a rude awakening, and it will eventually become clear that the federal government has failed us. Americans aren't prepared for this change in living standards. My generation, your generation, cannot pay for the previous ones. So something is going to need to happen in order to start fresh.

That time hasn't quite come yet, so secession still seems far fetched, but when the right (Or wrong) crises hits, it might even be a no brainner.

Am I spoiled for living in a first world country? Hell yeah, and I want stay living in a first world country! The difference is that i don't attribute my living in a first world country to the wisdom and power of the supposedly magical US Federal Government ! I know what builds wealth. I'm pushing for ideas that will keep me and my family living in a first world country, not the other way around...I can get into that and talk for days but I'm short I time right now.

maybe we just have different interpretations of reality.

We do. See, some years back I was raising the same points and arguments that you are right now. But like the Matrix movie, one day I decided to take that damn red pill and never looked back.

For the most part, I don't care what a person political ideologies are as long as people are consistent, open to discussion and good people. Im not attacking you my boy, me and you are damn near the same so if I am attacking you, I better understand that I am also attacking myself. But again, Im not so im not worried.

Don't even trip, I'm Not soft! LWl

.02 cents Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:28 pm

A couple of weeks ago, Black Entertainment Television founder Bob Johnson, speaking at The National Press Club, said the nation "would never tolerate white unemployment at 14 and 15 percent." Black unemployment has been double that of white Americans for more than 50 years. The black youth unemployment rate is more than 40 percent nationally. In some cities, unemployment for black working-age males is more than 50 percent. Let's look at this, but first let's look at some history.
From 1900 to 1954, blacks were more active than whites in the labor market. Until about 1960, black male labor force participation in every age group was equal to or greater than that of whites. During that period, black teen unemployment was roughly equal to or less than white teen unemployment. As early as 1900, the duration of black unemployment was 15 percent shorter than that of whites; today it's about 30 percent longer. To do something about today's employment picture requires abandonment of sacred cows and honesty.

But it isn't just employment:

The truth is that black female-headed households were just 18 percent of households in 1950, as opposed to about 68 percent today.In fact, from 1890 to 1940, the black marriage rate was slightly higher than that of whites. Even during slavery, when marriage was forbidden for blacks, most black children lived in biological two-parent families. In New York City, in 1925, 85 percent of black households were two-parent households. A study of 1880 family structure in Philadelphia shows that three-quarters of black families were two-parent households.

The poverty rate among blacks is 36 percent. Most black poverty is found in female-headed households. The poverty rate among black married couples has been in single digits since 1994 and is about 8 percent today. The black illegitimacy rate is 75 percent, and in some cities, it's 90 percent. But if that's a legacy of slavery, it must have skipped several generations, because in the 1940s, unwed births hovered around 14 percent.

African Americans were working a lot more during this era, almost everybody was... Do you think the jobs the African Americans were working during this time went away, no, Immigrant Latinos do that work now. (Nannies, cooks, fields, low level service jobs) Plus, your also talking about an era where the United States was bustling, we outproduced the world during this era, unlike today where everything is outsourced. As for families, there was a war on minorities once they started winning their rights. Cointel-pro is a prime example of the level that government agencies were going to derail the empowerment and enlightenment of oppressed peoples. Do you know how politically active young blacks, latinos and asians were during this era, very. Because they were sick and tired of getting kicked to the curb. Without the advancements that minorities have made through legislation, we would be much worse off. Do you think that if the civil rights movements wouldnt have occured, that whites in power would have just given power to minorities... come on Cray, you know better than that. But I will say, no matter how racist or oppressive our country's history may have been, they still fronted the money to pay for roads, airports, infrastructure, etc... that have set the foundation for a person who truly wants to better themselves, to give themselves an opportunity for success. I have a buddy from Fresno, got kicked out of high school, dropped out for a while, eventually came back to school, joined the cross country team because homie could run long, got accepted to a University because of a fucked up situation growing up, single mom, bros in and out of prison, sister knocked up early, welfare all of his life... When he got to college, this mofo took care of business, fuck everybody, im doing me. And he did the damn thang... No money from parents, way too poor, so thanks to federal aid and scholarships, he was able to afford school. Graduated, went back to Fresno with a teaching credential, now teaching and coaching cross Country. This mofo wanted it, and he went and got it. He didnt talk it, he did it. No excuses, mofo had it rough, for real. But because of the federal govt and their loan program, he was able to finance his way through college without even having to take out a loan. Now, instead of being another statistic and having tax payers pay his prison bill, he is now a taxpayer, working on helping more kids get access to college.

Again, our govt, espescially today is and always has been shady, towards the non majority. But its that exact same govt that offers the same opportunities to almost everyone. Excluded from that list are drug offenders and certain types of felons I think, but for the most part, there is assistance if you need it. This country is not perfect, but this generation (not yours or mine necessarily, but ours too a least a little) is freaking zombied out. Their voice is haerd through a digital medium. Stuck on their phones, tablets, video games and computers. Who plays outside still, oh no its too dangerous... Fuck that. We are the problem vbecause we have gotten to complacent as a society. The reason the govt is fucking us is because we allow it. We complain behind a cpu but are too scared to go outside because who knows what mentally disabled person is going to shoot you with an assault rifle... Bullshit. I know you know this. I know this too. I dont mind fucking with you, you are intelligent enough to know better. But even you got a little defensive, and thats natural. But mofos nowadays complain, but for what? They arent going to do anything about. Just point fingers. I know you know what im talking about. And if we dont make any moves, if we dont create action, all the things that you worry about are going to become the new reality, and thats the scary part. Mofos wont know any better, dumb asses will be walking around like robots carrying the flag around thinking their patriotic when in fact they are sheep lost in the lies of the propagandist machine that it appears our current regime is attempting to prop up...

American Zombie Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:49 am

.02 cents wrote:
...

African Americans were working a lot more during this era, almost everybody was... Do you think the jobs the African Americans were working during this time went away, no, Immigrant Latinos do that work now. (Nannies, cooks, fields, low level service jobs) Plus, your also talking about an era where the United States was bustling, we outproduced the world during this era, unlike today where everything is outsourced.

Yea they were working a lot more during this era, and so were others (Which begs the question of "WHY?" Hint: It isn't by accident.) but that still doesn't explain why right now blacks are unemployed at a much higher rate than whites compared to back then, at a time when they faced FAR more racial intolerance and were much poorer (materialistically speaking).

Some of the jobs are now done by immigrants, but this again begs the question of why? And why was the United States bustling? That's the entire point of me bringing it up. The United States is uncompetitive and there's logical reasons as to WHY. But the overall question to that opens a whole other can of worms beyond the point of this topic.

Why were blacks steadily making progress up until the 60s and then all of a sudden everything went wrong. Can it be that government policies weren't so helpful after all? Could it even be that some policies even did great damage? Would you even consider that as one possibility?

As for families, there was a war on minorities once they started winning their rights. Cointel-pro is a prime example of the level that government agencies were going to derail the empowerment and enlightenment of oppressed peoples. Do you know how politically active young blacks, latinos and asians were during this era, very. Because they were sick and tired of getting kicked to the curb. Without the advancements that minorities have made through legislation, we would be much worse off. Do you think that if the civil rights movements wouldnt have occured, that whites in power would have just given power to minorities...

If you going to talk about conitel-pro than you're just helping my case against the US Federal Government.

I don't have a problem with people being active and fighting back against the ruling class. I'm just extremely skeptical of voting as a true solution and I also object to it on moral grounds.

You talked about civil disobedience in an earlier post. I never said I was against civil disobedience. Civil disobedience is NOT voting, it is the exact opposite. I admire and respect those who engage in it but it has to be done in a smart way. There's people that engage in it and get thrown in prison and get no attention or recognition what so ever. People have to know about it in order for it to be effective.

What great advancements have minorities made through legislation? Most laws passed in the name of helping minorities wind up hurting them far more than they help. Remember how good intentions often lead to bad outcomes? Well it triple applies in this category.

And what's this talk about whites giving power to minorities?

See that's what I dislike about statism and democracy so much. Everybody reaching for power, everybody wanting to get himself and "his people" on the throne. Everybody fighting and stomping on each other for that heavy hand of the State to be controlled by themselves.

Nobody should be fighting for power. We should ALL be demanding freedom. Simple and pain. Break free from the master, don't try becoming him, that's my point.

But I will say, no matter how racist or oppressive our country's history may have been, they still fronted the money to pay for roads, airports, infrastructure, etc... that have set the foundation for a person who truly wants to better themselves, to give themselves an opportunity for success

Who do you mean by "they" ? Where do you think the money they used to pay for -FILL IN THE BLANK- came from? Did it come from the magical pool of wealth that only the US Federal Govt has access to? Did it simply come from the goodness of the hearts of politicians? NO.
The government doesn't have shit, it doesn't pay for shit, and it isn't a charity. It pays for things by stealing money from one person to give to another. It is thee old gun in the room. It takes money from one person by force and then gives it to another. If a person refuses to give up their money, they throw them in prison, if they resist, they shoot them. That's all there is to it. No magic there.

They set no foundation. The generations of Americans who worked hard throughout the the 1800s and early 1900s set the foundation. They worked hard by creating enough wealth for the next generations to enjoy. They started from scratch, working longer hours and sacrificing, and all the government did was take some of the money and spend it on various projects and services.

I have a buddy from Fresno, got kicked out of high school, dropped out for a while, eventually came back to school, joined the cross country team because homie could run long, got accepted to a University because of a fucked up situation growing up, single mom, bros in and out of prison, sister knocked up early, welfare all of his life... When he got to college, this mofo took care of business, fuck everybody, im doing me. And he did the damn thang... No money from parents, way too poor, so thanks to federal aid and scholarships, he was able to afford school. Graduated, went back to Fresno with a teaching credential, now teaching and coaching cross Country. This mofo wanted it, and he went and got it. He didnt talk it, he did it. No excuses, mofo had it rough, for real. But because of the federal govt and their loan program, he was able to finance his way through college without even having to take out a loan. Now, instead of being another statistic and having tax payers pay his prison bill, he is now a taxpayer, working on helping more kids get access to college.

I'm not hating on that, people got to do what they got to do to make it in this world. We have to deal the cards we're dealt. Shit, I do in my own ways. Who doesn't know somebody on the government dole in some form or another? But that's the world we live in now. This is all we know, because most of us are so unable to imagine a different world that is actually possible. We're beaten down and subconsciously taught to think like helpless little children or slaves. Without daddy government, where would we be?
There were slaves who didn't want freedom, because after all, 'Masta takes care of us, he makes sure we're fed and clothed right, provides us shelter and without him we would STARVE!'

^ That's how I interpret your story. It is so common, because that's how we were all conditioned to think and respond to anyone who dares question the legitimacy of our rulers.

For every good thing you see the govt do, there's 10 more bad things they've done, or worse, there's 10 good things that could have happened but didn't, but they made it impossible.

There's the saying that goes something like ''the government breaks your leg and then offers you a cast."

That saying applies to almost every area I can think of.

-Government drives up the cost of health care through various policies and turns around a offers medicare , medicade and obama care
-government runs up the cost of education and turns around and offers student loans and other educational programs or subsidies.
-government meddles in the housing market and creates a housing bubble, and then offers all kinds of benefits to first time home buyers and passes other legislation to help people afford homes that they (the govt) caused to become expensive. Bubble bursts and they come to the rescue with their horrible solutuns.

Government overall makes people poorer and poorer and then offers them welfare benefits!

It's not a weird paranoid conspiracy or an obsession with blaming government on my part, it's just about pointing out that this statist system in inherently flawed because at the root, it is a system based on coercion, force, violence, lies and corrupted power. That's it, no mystery to it.

government = violence.

The reason the govt is fucking us is because we allow it.

Agreed.

Sponsored content